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robinturnerPosted to the Mandrake OT list:
Patrik Marxer wrote:
> I
> don't want to find myself in a position where I loose the war when I loose a
> single battle, that would not be fair, given the fact that it's only me (and
> to a degree Robin) who HAVE positions that can be argued. Yours is just the
> critique of mine.
"To a degree"? I can't see how I can make my position more arguable. For those who want to argue against it, here it is in a nutshell.
1. The American public is generally well-intentioned, but is lamentably uninformed about Middle Eastern politics, Islam, military strategy and basic geography (I remember Reagan's scare-mongering that Nicaraguan troops could be at the US border in days, and that many US citizens believed it because they didn't know Mexico was in the way).
2. American governments are frequently misinformed about the Middle East , and also contain an alarmingly high number of morons. Sorry, that was politically incorrect; I should say "Americans of less-connected neurons" or "dendritically-challenged citizens". American governments are also paid for by corporations, so their policies tend to be formulated with those corporate interests in mind (for example, the "forgive and forget" position taken in the Microsft anti-trust case and the dropping of the bin-Laden investigation when Bush seized power).
3. Following from 1. and 2., America should stay out of the Middle East.
I say this for a number of reasons. The first is that as a martial artist (OK, a very bad martial artist) I have a strong awareness of physical violence and what it does to people's bodies and minds. I am also familiar with the ethical questions involved in using violence, and that the ethics of street-fighting don't work in complex international situations.
The second is that I have been traumatised by TV news since I watched coverage of the Vietnam war as a child. I really don't want to watch pictures of babies with shrapnel wounds. Call me selfish if you want.
I am also concerned at the way the American government claims to be concerned about military losses when there is no serious advantage to be had (as in Kosovo) but is quite happy to use it's own citizens as cannon fodder when the (economic) going gets tough.
More controversialy, I am sick to the back teeth of continually seeing rich, comfortable people supporting actions that will seriously hurt poor people who are just trying to get on with their lives.
Finally, there is another selfish consideration that a war with Iraq could result in a Scud missile dropping on my head, though I don't take this too seriously, as I believe that Iraq's military capability has been seriously exaggerated.
I understand that Americans have been seriously hurt by 9/11. I haven't been physically involved in a terrorist incident, but I have an idea about what it's like. When I was a teenager, my girlfriend-to-be, Catherine, lost her best friend because the IRA looked in the telephone directory and saw her father listed as "Inspector Kyle." They wiped out him and his family before they realised that he wasn't a police inspector, but a tax inspector. The daughter died from a bullet to her stomach, which anyone who has seen military service will tell you is a particularly unpleasant way to go. However, Catherine didn't respond by demanding that the British government bomb Dublin or declare a war against Catholicism.
I have very little hope left that this war can be averted, but I'm still doing my thing, which at the moment is preparing a paper for the Center for Cooperative Research on Turkey's position. I hope that other people on this list will do what they can too.
"What did you do in the war, Daddy?"
Patrik Marxer wrote:
> I
> don't want to find myself in a position where I loose the war when I loose a
> single battle, that would not be fair, given the fact that it's only me (and
> to a degree Robin) who HAVE positions that can be argued. Yours is just the
> critique of mine.
"To a degree"? I can't see how I can make my position more arguable. For those who want to argue against it, here it is in a nutshell.
1. The American public is generally well-intentioned, but is lamentably uninformed about Middle Eastern politics, Islam, military strategy and basic geography (I remember Reagan's scare-mongering that Nicaraguan troops could be at the US border in days, and that many US citizens believed it because they didn't know Mexico was in the way).
2. American governments are frequently misinformed about the Middle East , and also contain an alarmingly high number of morons. Sorry, that was politically incorrect; I should say "Americans of less-connected neurons" or "dendritically-challenged citizens". American governments are also paid for by corporations, so their policies tend to be formulated with those corporate interests in mind (for example, the "forgive and forget" position taken in the Microsft anti-trust case and the dropping of the bin-Laden investigation when Bush seized power).
3. Following from 1. and 2., America should stay out of the Middle East.
I say this for a number of reasons. The first is that as a martial artist (OK, a very bad martial artist) I have a strong awareness of physical violence and what it does to people's bodies and minds. I am also familiar with the ethical questions involved in using violence, and that the ethics of street-fighting don't work in complex international situations.
The second is that I have been traumatised by TV news since I watched coverage of the Vietnam war as a child. I really don't want to watch pictures of babies with shrapnel wounds. Call me selfish if you want.
I am also concerned at the way the American government claims to be concerned about military losses when there is no serious advantage to be had (as in Kosovo) but is quite happy to use it's own citizens as cannon fodder when the (economic) going gets tough.
More controversialy, I am sick to the back teeth of continually seeing rich, comfortable people supporting actions that will seriously hurt poor people who are just trying to get on with their lives.
Finally, there is another selfish consideration that a war with Iraq could result in a Scud missile dropping on my head, though I don't take this too seriously, as I believe that Iraq's military capability has been seriously exaggerated.
I understand that Americans have been seriously hurt by 9/11. I haven't been physically involved in a terrorist incident, but I have an idea about what it's like. When I was a teenager, my girlfriend-to-be, Catherine, lost her best friend because the IRA looked in the telephone directory and saw her father listed as "Inspector Kyle." They wiped out him and his family before they realised that he wasn't a police inspector, but a tax inspector. The daughter died from a bullet to her stomach, which anyone who has seen military service will tell you is a particularly unpleasant way to go. However, Catherine didn't respond by demanding that the British government bomb Dublin or declare a war against Catholicism.
I have very little hope left that this war can be averted, but I'm still doing my thing, which at the moment is preparing a paper for the Center for Cooperative Research on Turkey's position. I hope that other people on this list will do what they can too.
"What did you do in the war, Daddy?"
