More linguistic nit-picking

[robinturner]

I ask rhetorically, and in my most curmudgeonly voice: "Whatever happened to place structure?"

Those readers who have better things to do with their lives than study semantics may well ask (non-rhetorically) "WTF is a place structure?"

Well boys and girls, place structure is what happens when you use any verb (well any predicate, to be precise). If I say "Fred gave John a chihuahua", the place structure of "give" tells us that it was John, not Fred, who received the dog, and that the Fifi wasn't giving anyone anything. So what would we expect in the following sentence from the website of Anthony Robbins?

He has consulted members of two royal families, U.S. Congressmen, the U.S. Army, the U.S. Marines and three Presidents of the United States.

Wrong. Apparently Mr Robbins was not going around asking for the opinions of various dignitaries (plus the entire army and marine corps*). Rather, it was he who was giving them advice. It seems that "consult" is now a two-way verb, in that it can mean either "a sought the opnion of b" or "the opinion of a was sought by b." The only other verb that comes to mind that has this property is the Cheney word.

* I thought the U.S. Marines were part of the U.S. Army, but then my knowledge of this organisation comes mainly from G.I. Jane, so I could well be wrong.

Comments

[alsoname.livejournal.com]

Who would name their chihuahua Fifi? That's a total poodle name.

[alsoname.livejournal.com]

Oh and for what it's worth, I don't use the Cheney word that way. One person Cheneys the other, while the second person is Cheneyed BY the first person. But I realize I'm probably in the minority when it comes to this particular precision of definition.

[solri.livejournal.com]

But does it matter who is the agent and who the patient? If Harry Cheneys Sally, does that imply that Sally also Cheneys Harry, or is it strictly determined by a SOURCE-PATH-GOAL (or maybe a CONTAINER) image schema?

Interestingly, the Turkish for the Cheney verb is also, as a noun, his first name. Even more interestingly, it can be used with a reciprocal suffix, so you could say "Ahmet and Ayşe were Dicking each other."

[alsoname.livejournal.com]

It definitely matters. In the traditional notion of Chenying, Harry can Cheney Sally, but Sally does not Cheney Harry. Of course, she can Cheney him using nontraditional means. But they can only be Cheneying each other if they're, like, using some kind of device that allows for reciprocol Cheneying. In other words, the Cheneyer is the agent and the Cheneyed is the patient. For Sally to Cheney Harry would be kinky, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I guess it would be a CONTAINER image schema, since I think of Cheneying as the action of penetrating.

Does Turkish "dick" come from an actual Turkish word, or is is an English borrowing? Because in my dialect, "Ahmet and Ayşe were Dicking each other" basically means what it would mean in Turkish. I don't know about your dialect, since y'all seem to say "Willy" instead of "Dick."

[solri.livejournal.com]

Actually I meant that it had the same meaning as "Dick", not the same phonology. If we're talking phonology, it sounds the same as "sick", which can lead to lots of sniggers in basic English classes.

I've never heard the phrase "dicking each other" (and you can't use "willy" as a verb).

[alsoname.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see.

Actually, it's more commonly "He was dicking her," but people would probably understand you if you said "dicking each other."

cheney word

[asteriskhere.livejournal.com]

I've only heard the word dick used as a verb in the sense of, "He dicked me over" meaning he screwed me over, as in, ripped me off, or...well I can't come up with any non-slang equivalent!

Re: cheney word

[asteriskhere.livejournal.com]

He has consulted members of two royal families, U.S. Congressmen, the U.S. Army, the U.S. Marines and three Presidents of the United States.

So how would you say this? I guess, "He was consultant to..." ?

Re: cheney word

[solri.livejournal.com]

I suppose so.

Re: cheney word

[alsoname.livejournal.com]

"He took terrible advantage of me indeed."

Hee.

[blorky.livejournal.com]

The Marines are, in fact, a department of the Navy...the Mens Department.


(I have no particular affiliation with the Marines, I just think the line is funny.)

[cassielsander.livejournal.com]

That's pretty funny. Hmmm...I'll bet there's an inter-service-rivalry faq out there somewhere that has lots of gems like that.

[cassielsander.livejournal.com]

The U.S. Marines are part of the U.S. Navy (kind of). They have a seperate structure (and their Commandant is a member of the Join Chiefs) but there are integrations at various points up and down the line.

The film A Few Good Men (I've got a film for everything) provides some insights into their relationship, for instance that Marine defendants are prosecuted by marines but defended by sailors, and Jack Nicholson's generous allowance that "We need a navy; every once in a while the Marines need a ride and there they are". (not word-for-word)

Said movie would have been another good one for the Warriors theme ("This society has walls, and those walls must be guarded by men with guns"). Except that it's one of those where the Warriors in question never actually get to fight an enemy.

[solri.livejournal.com]

I saw the film, but it was dubbed into Turkish, so I didn't get most of the interdepartmental politics.

[ironed_orchid]

It seems that "consult" is now a two-way verb

That's just wrong! We must put an end to this blasphemy at once, not matter how many lives are lost in the pursuit of our nobel cause.

[vret.livejournal.com]

Is a nobel cause one where you don't react?

[ironed_orchid]

No, it's one that demands the blood of innocents.

Of course, I was so upset about grammar that I didn't check my own in the previous comment.

[molkovia04.livejournal.com]

Marines get most upset when you ask them how life in the army is treating them.
As library rep for the Navy department, I have to deal with the amphibious warfare course... I love my marines.