Islam: Sometimes I can't resist quoting myself

[robinturner]

I've been through this islamophobic thing so many times ...

dennis wrote:

> Allah does not mean God, but is the name of a specific God.

You are confusing etymology with semantics. Allah means God, period. Ask
any Muslim.

Besides, as I've said before, if you have a monotheistic religion, then
logically whatever god you worship has to be God, simply because there
are no alternatives. In a polytheistic system, you could argue for ages
about whether Mars and Ares different war gods, or just the Latin and
Greek names for the same war god, but in monotheism you don't get that
choice. Allah = God = Jehovah = Brahman *by definition*.

Come to think of it, all this monotheism is getting boring. Maybe it's
time to get back to my roots and start taking evening classes in
wickerwork ;-)

>>>The teachings of Judaism and Christianity are suppose to be observed I
>>>believe, but are totally incompatable with Islam.
>>>How could they be compatible, In Christianity, Jesus is the Messiah and
>>>Son of God. Muslims do not recognize him as such.
>>
>>In Islam, Jesus is the Messiah,
>
> Then why is he not worshipped as such ?

Because the Messiah is human and as such is not to be worshipped. Jews
wouldn't worship the Messiah either.

>>but not the Son of God.
>
> Then how could he be the Messiah ?

Your knowledge of Judaism is a little lacking, methinks.

>>The same holds
>>true for some versions of Christianity as well.
>
> No.

As is your knowledge of Christology. The idea that Jesus was God is
generally attributed to Paul, someone who had never even met him.
Non-Pauline Christians (Nazarenes and Ebionites) generally believed that
Jesus was the Messiah, but not God.

>>>And actually Jews and Christians are suppose to be respected, and left
>>>unmolested, but historically that has not been the reality of Islam. And
>>>not just among the Arab Muslims.
>>
>>Historically, Islam has a better overall record on religious tolerance
>>than Christianity.
>
> No.

Most historians would agree with me, so I think a more substantial
answer than "no" is called for. On the other hand, don't bother - I'm
not sure if I have the patience to go through all this again.

By the way, when the Jews were kicked out of Spain, who took them in?

>>>Anti Jew and Christian bigotry is taught to this day.
>>
>>Some Muslims teach anti-Jew and/or anti-Christian bigotry. Others teach
>>tolerance.
>
> Few.

And what research have you done to reach this conclusion? You can't be
generalising from the literature because you've only read a couple of
books, and you can't be generalising from your personal experience
because you don't know any Muslims. For once, can't you swallow your
pride and admit that as someone who has lived in a Muslim country for
thirteen years (and known a large number of Muslims before that) and has
read extensively on the subject, my ideas about what Muslims think might carry some weight? I'm not trying to set myself up as an authority on
Islam, but I do know a thing or two about what Joe Muslim thinks.

Imagine that you are e-mailing with a Muslim who keeps going on about
how Christianity is a religion of hate and mentions Christian atrocities
in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Spanish Inquisition etc. Wouldn't the dialogue
go something like this?

Dennis: How many Christians have you actually met?
Mustafa: None. We don't have any near where I live, praise be to Allah.
Dennis: So where do you get these ideas?
Mustafa: I look at a lot of objective news sources, like Al Jazeera and
the Hammas Daily News. I've also read two books, and one of them was by
a Christian.
Dennis: Have you read the Bible?
Mustafa: Well not all of it, but that book I read had a lot of extracts
from it, like how the Jews killed babies.
Dennis: And have you read Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John of the Cross,
Julian of Norwich, Theresa of Avila, Martin Buber or indeed any
Christian philosophers and mystics?
Mustafa: Why should I bother? All the important stuff is in this website
I looked at.

So I ask you: have you read Ibn al-Arabi, Al Farabi, Ibn Sina
(Avicenna), Ibn Rushd (Averroes), Rumi, Haji Bektash ...? Have you ever
been in a mosque and talked to the congregation? Have you been in a
Middle Eastern country and talked to people on the streets?

If the answer is "no", then you will pardon me if I do not take your
opinions seriously.

Comments

[trochee.livejournal.com]

You rock.

I'd like to think that he walked away* with his tail between his legs, apologizing.

But I'm going to guess that at best you got silence, and possibly his friends jumped in here and picked on you for, um, let's see**: "denier of Christ", "apologist for terrorism", or "atheist"?

I dunno... what happened? I wish you could give this poor schmuck*** the "road from Damascus" moment he deserves, but I bet it was another case of refusing to see the forest for the bark.

*I'm assuming, with good reason, that the other locutor is a man; I'd be interested to know if I am wrong.
**Ew... thinking inside his head is kinda gross.
***he doesn't deserve a Yiddish epithet, but when the foo shits...

[solri.livejournal.com]

No tails were inserted between legs, but that hardly surprised me. On knockabout e-mail lists like this, you tend to argue for the fun of arguing, and if you're trying to change anyone's mind, it's usually not that of your immediate adversary, but the minds of the the people who are watching from the sidelines.

[vret.livejournal.com]

> Allah does not mean God, but is the name of a specific God.

You are confusing etymology with semantics. Allah means God, period. Ask any Muslim.

He's not totally wrong there. Originally, Allah was just the name of one member of the local pantheon. But then, the same is true of the Jewish/Xian god. It's not a coincidence that Yhwh was pronounced exactly the same as Jove (and there is a little similarity between the names Adonai and Adonis).

[solri.livejournal.com]

"Study" is a strong word, but I read a little. I have a passing familiarity with some of the major Christian and Islamic philosophers, nothing more.

Re: Wickerwork can be good

[gnodal.livejournal.com]

*How is it that I've not been seeing your posts?*

I found complimentary mention of this item (http://www.livejournal.com/users/evan/715108.html) in evan's LJ.

I keep coming back to the same notion ... something at the cognitive level, but variable in its action ... as though the breadth of a gate ... like a cognitive schema. The concept of "narrow minded" captures it sufficiently, if simplistically; there needs to be a sophistication having to do with more domains or phases, so that ... well, "ice" to a Mayan is not the same as "ice" to an Inu.

Hubris and impunity seem to share a root.

stay well

Re: Wickerwork can be good

[hfx-ben.livejournal.com]

Oh-woops

C'est moi.

Re: Wickerwork can be good

[solri.livejournal.com]

The wickerwork thing was a reference to that film The Wİcker Man ;-)

Re: Wickerwork can be good

[gnodal.livejournal.com]

Oh!
(Re-canning wicker chairs is something I'd like to take up as a hobby in my later years ... no, not kidding!)